Hello,
I was just starting to reply to the post of ``Fraser'' on bug-hurd. He, as
many before him, offer his services to an almost alarming extent: He offers
to (re)learn to program in order to help the project.
This sort of postings are typically taken very inserious, and sometimes even
ignored completely. Beside the rudeness of such, I can't imagine that we
can't be used for anything.
This leads me to ask (again): How are users of GNU going to be integrated? I
might be completely lost, but trawling through the web hasn't been beneficial
for me to move on past the installation and basic setup.
The documentation ends at the point where the user has a partly-working and
user-interactionly bugged system. I hope that there is potential for getting
more to work (like the screenshots of KDE or GNME promises), but that is
besides the point: The non-native-hacker users are left in the complete dark,
as far as I can see it.
Am I missing something, or is there a general lack of documentation and/or
means of interacting with the users? If so, please provide some information
so the not-so-hackerish-users may contribute, too. Hell, I don't even know
how to file a bug report -- nor what to report.
Please spare a minute to comment, and excuse my irritation: I have developed
strong feelings for this project. :)
Regards, Anders
Help-hurd mailing list
Help-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org
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Monday 08 August 2005 16:49, Anders Breindahl wrote:
Hello,

I was just starting to reply to the post of ``Fraser'' on bug-hurd. He, as
many before him, offer his services to an almost alarming extent: He offers
to (re)learn to program in order to help the project.

This sort of postings are typically taken very inserious, and sometimes
even ignored completely. Beside the rudeness of such, I can't imagine that
we can't be used for anything.

This leads me to ask (again): How are users of GNU going to be integrated?
I might be completely lost, but trawling through the web hasn't been
beneficial for me to move on past the installation and basic setup.
The documentation ends at the point where the user has a partly-working and
user-interactionly bugged system. I hope that there is potential for
getting more to work (like the screenshots of KDE or GNME promises), but
that is besides the point: The non-native-hacker users are left in the
complete dark, as far as I can see it.

Am I missing something, or is there a general lack of documentation and/or
means of interacting with the users? If so, please provide some information
so the not-so-hackerish-users may contribute, too. Hell, I don't even know
how to file a bug report -- nor what to report.

Please spare a minute to comment, and excuse my irritation: I have
developed strong feelings for this project. :)
Regards, Anders

I mean to point out:
- The users of the premature GNU system are too much on their own
- There seems to be too little flow of information and help downwards
- No official documentation exist, nor any central entrypoints

I would really prefer that the developers could either admit that I am correct
on this critique or -- preferably -- argue why I am wrong.

Assuming that the critique is justified: What is to be done?
I would personally love to maintain an official wiki, if somebody could fill
in the holes of my knowledge. I would also happily file bugs or even headdive
into kernel debugging -- I just need to have my will to contribute
appreciated, and pointed in the right direction.

And I don't think I am completely alone on these thoughts:
- Many users of free software are daily suffering from their unwillingness to
install e.g. proprietary display drivers or animation runtimes -- these
people are probably willing to give their effort for the completion of GNU,
too.
- In fact, people are regularly volunteering for various tasks. If people go
to the extent of sharing themselves to the mailing list -- they are most
probable willing to sacrifice time and effort.

People volunteering in mailing lists should IMH never be *ignored*.
So please: Share your thoughts.
Regards, Anders Breindahl.

Help-hurd mailing list
Help-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org

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[I'm answering to the previous and current poster in this mail.]

I was just starting to reply to the post of ``Fraser'' on
bug-hurd. He, as many before him, offer his services to an almost
alarming extent: He offers to (re)learn to program in order to
help the project.

We cannot teach each and every person who asks for help, if you wish
to hack, you must learn yourself the bits and pieces. We are to few,
and we have to little time for such things. If we would teach each
person who wishes to learn to program, then we wouldn't have time to
hack on the Hurd; and that is why we are here.

This sort of postings are typically taken very inserious, and
sometimes even ignored completely. Beside the rudeness of such, I
can't imagine that we can't be used for anything.

It isn't rudeness, it is simply because we are voluenteers and we
decide how we wish to spend our time. If you wish to dictate how we
should spend it, please pay whom ever you wish should reply to these
post (which have been answered a million times before); or teach
people how to program.

The non-native-hacker users are left in the complete dark, as far
as I can see it.

We can't see it, but since you see it, why don't you help these users
out of the dark instead of putting the burden on us who can't see it?
You seem to know what is missing, why don't you write documentation?
Why don't you update the user guide that is avaiable at
http://hurd.gnu.org? Why don't you answer to these posts?

Hell, I don't even know how to file a bug report -- nor what to
report.

A bug report should have two parts, what went wrong, and what you
expect. And you send such reports to bug-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org, this
information is avaiable from each program when you pass the
switch. This information is also available in the info page (just
type `info hurd' at your shell prompt), and on the Hurd project web
page (http://hurd.gnu.org).

=2D The users of the premature GNU system are too much on their own

I do not understand.

=2D There seems to be too little flow of information and help
downwards

Downwards where?

=2D No official documentation exist, nor any central entrypoints

The offical documentation is distributed with each program, and the
central entry point is the info program.

If any of you would like to make the GNU system more friendly for
"non-native-hackers", please subscribe to gnu-system-discuss (AT) gnu (DOT) org,
and say what you consider crappy, hard to understand etc. But note,
the GNU system isn't even usable for hardcore hackers at this stage,
but it should soon be usuable (as soon as I get round to building
everything, which should be soonish I hope). But please read the
mailing list before posting. :-)

Hope this clarifies something.

Help-hurd mailing list
Help-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org

Wednesday 10 August 2005 00:51, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
[I'm answering to the previous and current poster in this mail.]

Me, both times. I apologize for being so hasty on the follow-up.

We cannot teach each and every person who asks for help, if you wish
to hack, you must learn yourself the bits and pieces. We are to few,
and we have to little time for such things. If we would teach each
person who wishes to learn to program, then we wouldn't have time to
hack on the Hurd; and that is why we are here.

I believe we -- those who are not (yet ;) ) hacking away at the kernel code --
assume that some other work can be done than hacking. That is, in example, to
simply run the Hurd on a spare machine, or contributing to a wiki -- anything
that can speed up the development process. I am more or less asking the
tougher hackers to take action to relieve themselves from easier tasks, if
such is -- by your estimate -- possible.

The non-native-hacker users are left in the complete dark, as far
as I can see it.

We can't see it, but since you see it, why don't you help these users
out of the dark instead of putting the burden on us who can't see it?
You seem to know what is missing, why don't you write documentation?
Why don't you update the user guide that is avaiable at
http://hurd.gnu.org? Why don't you answer to these posts?

I was, in fact, answering to one, when I realised that it wouldn't be an
answer. Then I started this thread.

=2D The users of the premature GNU system are too much on their own

I do not understand.

We (the GNUbies) are really willing to do more, after we've installed the
system. The Debian page [0] one comes over during the installation of
crosshurd, explains that:
"To start with Hurd development, you should install Debian GNU/Hurd and get
used to it. Also, join the mailing lists and try to get a feeling for the
state of the development. your help, and we will tell you what is
needed to do."

As this page refers to ``lists'' in plural, I assume those lists to be
bug-hurd, help-hurd, hurd-l4, gnu-system-discuss and debian-hurd
Having been on all of these for up to the past few months (I also posted my
opinion on the naming of the GNU system to gnu-system-discuss), I pick up the
pace and conclude that those offering their help generally get ignored.
course, you can't be held responsible for the text of the Debian site, but
isn't it a pretty correct description of what you want? (And we only offer
our help once, as we wouldn't want to repeat ourselves).

=2D There seems to be too little flow of information and help
downwards

Downwards where?

From the ``upper'' developers to the ``lower'' users. I won't be after you for
not helping us with our everyday problems, but helping us get started helping
ourselves would not (as I see it; still your decision to make) be too large a
burden, in comparison with its potential?

=2D No official documentation exist, nor any central entrypoints

The offical documentation is distributed with each program, and the
central entry point is the info program.

Now that information need to be conveyed to the new users. In example, I had
no idea that the central entry point was `info`. It might be me who haven't
looked the right places -- but I haven't been directed to the right places,
so how would I know?
Some central and easily-maintainable site should be developed, IM Some
canonical reference -- and it shouldn't be off-site.

If any of you would like to make the GNU system more friendly for
"non-native-hackers", please subscribe to gnu-system-discuss (AT) gnu (DOT) org,
and say what you consider crappy, hard to understand etc. But note,
the GNU system isn't even usable for hardcore hackers at this stage,
but it should soon be usuable (as soon as I get round to building
everything, which should be soonish I hope). But please read the
mailing list before posting. :-)

Hope this clarifies something.

It did. I appreciate you putting off time replying, but I urge you (the plural
``you'') to throw some thoughts into how to use the willing users in the
development process. I suggest an official wiki in the spirit of the one on
gnufans.org [1], but with some developer-updated sections:
- What needs testing (when DHCP support becomes a reality, in example)
- What needs to be ported
- What troubles the devs now
- Where the devs keep their tarballs or packages, and what's new in them
- How the devs would suggest us to start porting a piece of software

Also, I opt to maintain some sort of newsletter like Debian Weekly News
(altough I believe that weekly newsletters would be overshooting the target).
Would that be worth the effort, and would any of the GNU insiders provide any
necessary hosting?

Last but not least, let me stress that I really appreciate your efforts. I
feel happy as a little boy when thinking of exchanging the monolithic kernel
design with something more advanced -- and you're the guys who are working on
giving exactly that to the world and me. I really appreciate it, and --
needless to say -- I'd hate to be in the way if you think I am.

Regards, Anders Breindahl.

[0]
[1] http://hurd.gnufans.org/

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I'm going to make this short, I feel it is pointles to make a long
response since it has been discussed to death before.

We do not have the time to help users who cannot help themselves. If
you have, please help these users; but we cannot since we do not have
the time, or interest to do so. And this applies in particular to
utterly vauge questions like "How do I program?" and "What should I
fix?"!

Also, I opt to maintain some sort of newsletter like Debian Weekly
News (altough I believe that weekly newsletters would be
overshooting the target). Would that be worth the effort, and
would any of the GNU insiders provide any necessary hosting?

We could host it on http://hurd.gnu.org.

Help-hurd mailing list
Help-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org

Wednesday 10 August 2005 08:58, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
I'm going to make this short, I feel it is pointles to make a long
response since it has been discussed to death before.

We do not have the time to help users who cannot help themselves. If
you have, please help these users; but we cannot since we do not have
the time, or interest to do so. And this applies in particular to
utterly vauge questions like "How do I program?" and "What should I
fix?"!

Also, I opt to maintain some sort of newsletter like Debian Weekly
News (altough I believe that weekly newsletters would be
overshooting the target). Would that be worth the effort, and
would any of the GNU insiders provide any necessary hosting?

We could host it on http://hurd.gnu.org.

I seem to collect that what you'd like is, that we non-native-hackers
take care of ourselves. Something still feels wrong, though.

Regards, Anders Breindahl.

Help-hurd mailing list
Help-hurd (AT) gnu (DOT) org

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If you want to help non-native-hackers, please do, but do not ever,
and I mean ever, demand people who do voluenteer work in their own
spare time to do something for you. So shutup and hack, please? Go
work on the "GNU Weekly Newsletter", work on the documentation, just
something, anything, pretty please with a cherry on top?

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