Message
From: extremeprogramming (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
[mailto:extremeprogramming (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com] Behalf Ron Jeffries
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 2:50 AM
To: extremeprogramming (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Management
Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 12:32:44 PM, SirGilligan wrote:
Since we are on the topic of software companies ran by development,
hmmm, lets think, Microsoft anyone else maybe Appple who
else, maybe Pixar are there others?! :-)
What is it about Microsoft that would lead you to say it was run by
development?
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Analysis kills spontaneity.
The grain once ground into flour germinates no more. -- Henri Amiel
Bill Gates was a developer.
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Friday, July 15, 2005, at 1:39:37 PM, David Roberts wrote:

>What is it about Microsoft that would lead you to say it was run by
>development?
>>
Bill Gates was a developer.

Yes but how is Microsoft really run? The decision makers look
like business people to me

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
It is a bad plan that admits of no modifications. -- Publius Syrus (ca. 42 BCE)

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Around Sunday, July 17, 2005, 7:57:25 AM, SirGilligan wrote:

>Planning and choosing a product or service that people *will* pay
>for is also a management responsibility.

I would disagree. It is a customer's responsibility.

What's a "customer"?

The way most companies that I have seen are organized, there are
executive functions, and particular organizations, called things
like "marketing", whose specific responsibility is to define the
company's products and services.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
To follow the path:
Look to the master; Follow the master; Walk with the master;
See through the master; Become the master. -- Modern Zen Poem

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Monday, July 18, 2005, at 9:06:12 AM, SirGilligan wrote:

There are actual people that are customers and there are people that
try to stand-in for customers and are role playing the part.

Please relate this definition to your statement below about
responsibility. Thanks

In extremeprogramming (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Ron Jeffries
<ronjeffries@Xwrote:
>Around Sunday, July 17, 2005, 7:57:25 AM, SirGilligan wrote:

Planning and choosing a product or service that people *will* pay
for is also a management responsibility.

I would disagree. It is a customer's responsibility.

>What's a "customer"?

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Replacing an on-site customer with some use cases is about as effective
as replacing a hug from your Mom with a friendly note.

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Monday, July 18, 2005, at 12:43:29 PM, SirGilligan wrote:

there was a broad statement about managers. Then it
leaned towards Project Management. Now it is leading toward
Product Management.

What we have here are "real customers" and "proxy customers"

By "real customers" do you mean people who will pay money to
purchase the product?

do you mean people who will use the product?

Even these two groups are often made up of different people.

And they might, legitimately, make different choices.

Proxy customers waste time and money, cause development of
useless features and feature creep, mistakenly judge a product
complete when it is not, and go off on tangents.

Are you saying that all proxy customers do those bad things? Are you
suggesting that "real" customers would not do those things?

Planning and choosing a product or service that people *will*
pay for is the /customer's/ responsibility /in XP/.

Yes, I believe that to be true, as a first approximation, at least.

Is that how you wanted it restated and related?

I wanted it restated and related in whatever way would elucidate
what you were thinking. I'm not here to edit your work, merely to
understand it and respond to it. I needed to understand better
before responding. Thanks.

I feel you are trying to tie two of my statements together to agree
with something else, but I miss where you are going.

I'm not going anywhere. I'm reading and responding. I'm not trying
to make any particular point in advance or even, quite possibly,
later. Certainly I have no objective beyond clarity and, with luck,
some mutual understanding.

There are actual people that are customers and there are people
that /try/ to stand-in for customers and are role playing the part.

I would say that "role playing" real customers is a very small part
of what XP Customers are there to do. They are there to choose what
to do, describe it, and so on. Most real customers, I'd expect, do
not do that.

For example, I have been a customer of Microsoft Word since the
first version. I do not know all the features, much less have a
prioritized view of their value. Yet the person in the XP Customer
role for such a product would need to be able to bring a view of the
whole thing that perhaps no "real" customer will ever have.

People that role play the customer /try/ to stand-in for thereal
customer. Try means they do not necessarily succeed.

Again, I think that standing in for "real" customers is likely a
small part of what they do, and that "real" customers, especially
one or a few "real" customers, are not likely to be able to do the
other things that the XP Customer is called upon to do.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? I hope so. I didn't know I was
going to say this until I started

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Resistance may or may not be futile. It is for sure not productive.

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