Dear friends.
A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release
At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
terms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
shortcommings of J2EE.
Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org
Do you think, that any CE will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
look at zope.org where is You got it.
To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
of success.
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and
* include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand but still complete and current
documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
framework but from its community.
And of course make Zope 4 even better.
Regards,
Gert
Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org
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Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:

>Make them love Zope at the very first look:
>
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
of success.
>
>Enable the beginners:
>
* Easy to read and understand but still complete and current
documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
one central location.
--

I think "Make them love Zope at the very first look" and "Enable the Beginner" is on the same issue , I consider my self a beginner and trying to learn Zope I found many resources on google but a little bit of "chaos" , a better united source from the central Zope (Zope.org) it is required. I is a shame to know that there is a big help and a big community but not so well united and organized.
Zope Book 2.7 it is in the same stage it was before 3,5 months ago when I started to reading it with some example only in DTML when Zope encourage leaving DTML for ZPT.
The how-to section () have *_only_* 3 post's for the year *2005 *!!!
A Zope editor is a must or to find another way more flexible ! external editor product it is steel a way but a ugly way in my opinion (no offense for the product) , to add numbers on every line when coding it will be a big step.

I don't want to blame the official Zope team , the are running with hard work for sure. It is just that Zope can do so much thing's compare to other products out there but important details have been left unaccomplished

I hope the point of this mail is to make Zope better and not to be considered as an accusation or an attack

Zope need and can become better :)

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Michael Haubenwallner wrote:

Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:
>
>Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
>>
Make them love Zope at the very first look:

* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only
experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a
feeling
of success.

Enable the beginners:

* Easy to read and understand but still complete and current
documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs,
chats,
mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and
searchable at
one central location.


>>
>I think "Make them love Zope at the very first look" and "Enable the
>Beginner" is on the same issue , I consider my self a beginner and
>trying to learn Zope I found many resources on google but a little
>bit of "chaos" , a better united source from the central Zope
>(Zope.org) it is required. I is a shame to know that there is a big
>help and a big community but not so well united and organized.
>Zope Book 2.7 it is in the same stage it was before 3,5 months ago
>when I started to reading it with some example only in DTML when Zope
>encourage leaving DTML for ZPT.
>The how-to section
>()
>have *_only_* 3 post's for the year *2005 *!!!
>A Zope editor is a must or to find another way more flexible !
>external editor product it is steel a way but a ugly way in my
>opinion (no offense for the product) , to add numbers on every line
>when coding it will be a big step.
>>
>I don't want to blame the official Zope team , the are running with
>hard work for sure. It is just that Zope can do so much thing's
>compare to other products out there but important details have been
>left unaccomplished
>>
>I hope the point of this mail is to make Zope better and not to be
>considered as an accusation or an attack
>>
>Zope need and can become better :)
>>
>>
>
zope.org HowTos are something between 1000 and 3000 documents.
Everyone wanting to help to review and consolidate that information
is welcome to send a note to webmaster (AT) zope (DOT) org or to the zope-web
mailing list (zope-web (AT) zope (DOT) org).

Michael

I think you are wrong , on Zope site it say's -Zope How-Tos 1- 20 of 300

cheers

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:

--
12/24/05, *Michael Haubenwallner* <michael (AT) d2m (DOT) at
<mailto:michael (AT) d2m (DOT) at>wrote:
>
>
>
The batch limit is set to '300', limiting the display of a sorted
result
set.

Here are numbers from the database:
old style howtos : 1986 (created until 2003)
new style howtos : 251 (created after the transition to
plone)
new published howtos : 90

The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
>
>
>
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do
to zope.org <http://zope.orgwhat we did to zope2. ignore and
build. leave it as old.zope.org <http://old.zope.organd link from
the new site.

happy holidays
--
Hth,
Michael

Ignore and build , I agree too :-)

Merry Christmas from Greece !

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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what's needed to spruce up the howtos, or zope.org? iirc, there was a
closed group with that mission setup some time back

It wasn't really 'closed' - just 'well defined'. It fell apart, due to
both of the committed developers backing out due to commitments they
couldn't get around. I am still highly interested in helping lead this
and actually doing work if we had 1 or 2 others who were committed. We
also already have a designer put in some time to assist with a "nicer"
look and feel who is still willing to work on this. The goal was not to
just 'spruce' things up, but rather change the focus of the site from
everything to just Zope the software, Zope Documentation, and Zope
Community. I was just talking about this on Christmas with someone, so
there's still hope it will happen.

Andrew Sawyers

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Sun, 2005-12-25 at 10:03 +0800, Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:

The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.

that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do
to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as
old.zope.org and link from the new site.

That was the plan. I'd like to revive the plan. :) Volunteers?
Andrew

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Greg Fischer wrote:

Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.

Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am
using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features
"built-in"?

And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on
Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on individual blogs
or other google searches. Zope.org <http://Zope.orgcould use a more
intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs
on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot!
Better and easier than a wiki, IMH The one thing I would say is,
from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have
done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to
provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg
would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a
little flashy too.

The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project
have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will
download it. I did.

Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
needs more hype for DTML. I KNW! 99% of you hate it. But every time
I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple
coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain
confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in
PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml
sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said
that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it
might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I
know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I
wish there were more hype about it.

So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete*
framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is
hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag
and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database
access built in. Mysql, Mssql, , Postgresql, all ready to go,
without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This
would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using
Visual Studio. this would work on Zope, and therefore would run
on Linux R Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS,
but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability
would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!

Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Hi! concerning the web based IDE I'm currently working on something like
what you describe for Zope3.

You should get on the z3lab-list. You can also get a blog on z3lab.org
and post flash animations:
http://www.z3lab.org/

Regards
/JM

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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To pour fuel on the flames

+1 DTML
-1 ZPT

Why

1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!

2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.

3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products.

ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach.

I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-)

If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.

Just my 1-1/2 cents.

Jonathan

Message
From: Greg Fischer
Cc: zope (AT) zope (DOT) org
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.

Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"?

And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMH The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too.

The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did.

Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it.

So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, , Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux R Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!

Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool!

42000+ Sites in 2006

6000+ Sites in 2002

Happy new year everyone!

1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr <cyrj (AT) cyr (DOT) infowrote:
Do we know Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection?

Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.

Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information.

Two Cents,

-Jon

Gert Thiel wrote:
Dear friends.A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind interms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyonespeaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about theshortcommings of J2EE.Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at
zope.org.Do you think, that any CE will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Havea look at rubyonrails.org
and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have anylook at zope.org where is You got it.To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel itspower before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls atthe very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:Make them love Zope at the very first look: * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.Bribe the managers: * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.Enable the beginners: * Easy to read and understand but still complete and current
documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or theframework but from its community.And of course make Zope 4 even better.Regards, Gert

maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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-- Jonathan Cyrhttp://www.cyr.info
http://www.weddingweblog.com
cyrj (AT) cyr (DOT) info

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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--
Greg Fischer
1st Byte Solutions
http://www.1stbyte.com

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Jonathan wrote:

To pour fuel on the flames

+1 DTML
-1 ZPT

Why

1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML
does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy,
reasonably robust and it works!

2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I
prefer a 'product' approach.

3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach
using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side
python scripts/external methods/products.

ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really
bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and
environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content
from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce
of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of
approach.

I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to
learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction
with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development
should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the
future imho :-)

If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML
and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time'
bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist
which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible,
in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.

Just my 1-1/2 cents.

Jonathan

Think about it: we argue about Z Classes vs DTML vs ZPT + python
scripts vs Products. Its all good.

Zope + 1

:-)

David

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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9 Jan 2006, at 13:29, Garito wrote:
<13 KB deleted>

Please clean up the subject line to remove your spam filter's
markings before you reply. And don't quote a whole long discussion
including countless message footers only to add one line to the bottom.

Thanks!

jens

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:

>I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday
>
>
You think, I hope :-)

I beg ;-) .

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:

Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
>
>Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
>
>>
I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday

>>
>>
>You think, I hope :-)
>>
>
>
I beg ;-) .

Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who
like dtml and those who like zpt?
Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choose
which most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide a
valid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-)
regards
Garry

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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Greg Fischer schrieb:

I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations
of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't

I see we have to improve teaching.

think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use
for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do.

Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple
reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope
community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is
all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform

You can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its really
kinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java,

that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away,
or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally
false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there
is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will
support it.

I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworks
to work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template
language and people would fall in love with it.

BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML.
DTML would be replaced by application logic in python
or python scripts and ZPT together.

No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should
find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in
Zope.

++Tino

Zope maillist - Zope (AT) zope (DOT) org

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