14 Sep 2006 15:51:27 -0700, "bbbl67" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:

>Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
>"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
>proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
>saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
>to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
>will do very well indeed. "
>

At least we AMD DIYers have a reference now for the kind of junk Dell is
selling.;-)

nobody@nowhere.net wrote:
The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.

Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
upgrading a BIS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
in a warehouse somewhere? wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
it doesn't keep an inventory. :-)

Yousuf Khan

nobody@nowhere.net wrote:
The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.

Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
upgrading a BIS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
in a warehouse somewhere? wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
it doesn't keep an inventory. :-)

Yousuf Khan

George Macdonald wrote:
14 Sep 2006 15:51:27 -0700, "bbbl67" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:
>
>Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
>"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
>proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
>saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
>to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
>will do very well indeed. "
>
>
At least we AMD DIYers have a reference now for the kind of junk Dell is
selling.;-)

It's funny, one of the anal-yst firms, Goldman-Sachs, is commenting that
the extent of support for AMD processors is less than expected, because
it doesn't think there's enough models being introduced. I guess it's
thinking that it's gotta be like the Intel model where you usually need
a different motherboard depending on whether it's Celeron, Pentium, or
Core, and even whenever new speed grades are introduced. Dell is only
introducing two models with AMD processors, the standard-sized E521 and
the slimline C521, and that's it. What GS doesn't seem to understand is
that the same system is available with everything from a Sempron, right
upto X2's (and probably FX'es too, but they aren't offered on these
models). So why would Dell need to offer anymore models?

Yousuf Khan

"Goldman Sachs notes that while there has been continued speculation
regarding the magnitude of AMD's (NYSE:AMD) penetration of Dell
(NASDAQ:DELL), they believe that Dell's initial rollout of AMD-based
products suggests that expectations may have gotten ahead of reality, at
least for the remainder of 2006. Dell's new Dimension products represent
a very small percentage of its overall business. Further, while AMD's
pending notebook relationship with Dell will drive incremental share
gains, they believe that if the extent to which Dell is currently using
AMD in desktops is similar to what the firm can expect in notebooks,
AMD's market share is unlikely to increase as meaningfully as current
expectations suggest. To that end, the firm is republishing their recent
analysis which illustrates that AMD's share gains at Dell/IBM in
2006/2007 will likely be more than offset by Intel's gains at HP, the
white box market, and the gaming enthusiast market."

Fri, 15 Sep 2006 13:44:41 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@yahoo.comwrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>14 Sep 2006 15:51:27 -0700, "bbbl67" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:
>>
Dell AMD boxes vastly cheaper than Intel
"All in all, I think the AMD based Dells are a very attractive
proposition. For the vast majority of people out there, the extra money
saved is well worth it, I can see why Dell went AMD now. This is going
to be a very interesting Christmas season with prices like these, AMD
will do very well indeed. "

>>
>At least we AMD DIYers have a reference now for the kind of junk Dell is
>selling.;-)
>
>It's funny, one of the anal-yst firms, Goldman-Sachs, is commenting that
>the extent of support for AMD processors is less than expected, because
>it doesn't think there's enough models being introduced. I guess it's
>thinking that it's gotta be like the Intel model where you usually need
>a different motherboard depending on whether it's Celeron, Pentium, or
>Core, and even whenever new speed grades are introduced. Dell is only
>introducing two models with AMD processors, the standard-sized E521 and
>the slimline C521, and that's it. What GS doesn't seem to understand is
>that the same system is available with everything from a Sempron, right
>upto X2's (and probably FX'es too, but they aren't offered on these
>models). So why would Dell need to offer anymore models?

They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
TH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

The castrated "Lite" version of the Nforce 430/6150 chipset is a perfect
illustration of why to avoid this garbage.

I just hope Dell is not going to use AMD as a foil to show off Intel's
"strengths". I've said several times that AMD would be better off without
Dell - they only devalue the product. To the casual buyer this is bottom
of the barrel - people often figure a few extra $$ spent is "worth it".

Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:57:40 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@yahoo.comwrote:

>nobody@nowhere.net wrote:
>The boxes are decent for the target audience. The only thing that
>doesn't look good is the memory - it's limited to 533. But this would
>hobble Intel boxes, especially Netbust based, even more than AMD ones.
>While expecting 800 from Dull in their value line desktops would be a
>stretch, they should've offered 667 at least as an option.
>
>Well, since the memory controller is on the CPU, shouldn't it be just a
>simple matter to enable 667 and 800, and even higher speeds, just by
>upgrading a BIS? Maybe Dell will enable the higher speeds later, when
>those speed bins become more affordable? Dell has to save money
>somewhere, so it's probably got a big inventory of 533Mhz DDR2 sitting
>in a warehouse somewhere? wait, scratch that, Dell is so efficient,
>it doesn't keep an inventory. :-)

If you look closely at the DDR2 market, nobody is selling a PC2-6400 DIMM
which requires less than 1.9V and there's only one or two of those - most
want 2.1(5)V or more. Even PC2-5300 is pushing it at 1.9V for many mfrs.
The integrated mbrd I looked at as a possible build for a family member,
was limited to 1.9V - not worth the risk IM Even non-integrated mbrds,
like the Asus M2N-E (~$90.), which has only a 4-step VR maxed at 1.95V, are
a big risk for PC2-6400.

Anybody buying that Dell PS with a view to upgrade is going to be
seriously disappointed. I'm still puzzled as to why they disabled the
nForce 1Gb network interface and added a 100Mb Broadcom chip but then
they also disabled the 2xPATA interfaces.<ugh>

Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:49:18 -0400, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.comwrote:

>They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
>the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
>TH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.

Given that an X2-4400 with TW REAL video card in Crossfire
configuration and a couple of HDD only drew about 320W peak. I don't
see any problem for a X2-5000 (not much difference there) and a single
REAL video card (about 80 to 100W difference there) on a 305W P/S.
:pPP

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:33:20 GMT, a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com
(The little lost angel) wrote:

Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:49:18 -0400, George Macdonald
><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.comwrote:
>
>>They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
>>the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
>>TH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.
>
>Given that an X2-4400 with TW REAL video card in Crossfire
>configuration and a couple of HDD only drew about 320W peak. I don't
>see any problem for a X2-5000 (not much difference there) and a single
>REAL video card (about 80 to 100W difference there) on a 305W P/S.

We've been over this before. Go look up the recommendations of the video
card mfrs: e.g. for X1900 XT 512MB, 450W P/S with 30A on +12V; in
Crossfire, 550W P/S with 38A on +12V. It's also not just about peak draw,
but the transient reponse to the steep current & voltage ramp in modern
power managed systems. I'm not a gamer but the reports on this indicate
that it's also game dependent, which makes sense, so there are people out
there who have happily functioning systems who just haven't played the
right (wrong ?) game.

I'm afraid the Dell P/S is just not up to it and does not satisfy the
video card mfrs' recommended specs.

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:17:35 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fnsfmf@jps.netwrote:

>
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.comwrote in message
>@4ax.com
>>
>They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S
>in
>the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
>TH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.
>
>My AMD system uses a 300W PSU, and according to my Kill A Watt wattmeter,
>draws a total of 82W from the wall socket, exclusive of my 19" LCD display,
>which accounts for another 35W but is not powered by my PC's PSU. A "real"
>video card? An X2 5000+ CPU? George, who do you think Dell's customers
>are?

If you follow the URL to the Dell E521 system config, the X2 5000+ is in
the list of "options"; it also has a PCIe x16 slot. wait when some
luser shoves an 7900 card in there Dell gets to tell him he needs a P/S
upgrade too and it's only approved if he pays Dell for the 7900. As for
your 82W system, Asus sells a video card with an external "helper" power
supply rated at 80W.

16 Sep 2006 13:56:11 -0700, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>If you look closely at the DDR2 market, nobody is selling a PC2-6400 DIMM
>which requires less than 1.9V and there's only one or two of those - most
>want 2.1(5)V or more. Even PC2-5300 is pushing it at 1.9V for many mfrs.
>The integrated mbrd I looked at as a possible build for a family member,
>was limited to 1.9V - not worth the risk IM Even non-integrated mbrds,
>like the Asus M2N-E (~$90.), which has only a 4-step VR maxed at 1.95V, are
>a big risk for PC2-6400.
>
>Well, I guess that explains it, the current generation DDR2 is too
>power-hungry, and Dell or whoever engineered these things for Dell
>didn't want to take a chance on wierd memory-related crashes, so they
>chose the slowest speed DDR2 available.
>
>It's possible that the next revision generation DDR2 will get down to
>1.95V or less, at the higher speeds.
>
>Anybody buying that Dell PS with a view to upgrade is going to be
>seriously disappointed. I'm still puzzled as to why they disabled the
>nForce 1Gb network interface and added a 100Mb Broadcom chip but then
>they also disabled the 2xPATA interfaces.<ugh>
>
>Well, most people who buy from Dell won't be upgrading, they'll be
>buying a new unit later. if they do upgrade, they buy it from Dell
>too.
>
>As for the Nforce Ethernet, weren't you the one that was saying that
>one has "issues"? I think you mentioned its built-in firewall was the
>issue. If they let people use the Nforce Ethernet, they may have to let
>people use the Nforce firewall, and again you run into wierd
>unreliability issues, this time at the network port. Going with a
>run-of-the-mill Broadcom port is the safe way to go.

Yeah there have been issues but the Firewall is easy to not load or not
provide as part of the drivers/software set. There was also a more serious
problem with checksum offloading but that is easy to disable, which I
suspect nVidia has built into the more recent nForce4 drivers as the
default, since they seem to work K now; the device manager entry still
shows Enabled but I don't think the control does anything now.

>As for disabling PATA, Dell is the one who supplies all of the hard
>drives and optical drives anyways for these systems, so likely they
>don't even bother to carry PATA stuff anymore, it's all SATA for them
>now.

Saving money on ribbon cable folding?:-) It seems that many people, even
DIYers are getting by with one optical drive now; personally I still prefer
a DVD-RM as well as a burner.

16 Sep 2006 14:17:26 -0700, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>They do have a point though: I have trouble believeing that the 305W P/S in
>the E521 can handle a X2 5000+, a real video card and a couple of HDDs.
>TH Dell can leave the higher end market to Alienware maybe.
>
well, this one is easy to answer. If you look at the Dell
>configurator, you'll see that the extent of a "real video" card they
>offer are either ATI X1300 or Nvidia 7300 (with TurboCache even!). I
>don't think either of these cards are going to strain their power
>supply one iota. If you want to put your own video card in however,
>then perhaps it might be a problem. But then again maybe not, they seem
>to be using some pretty low-power components here for the most part, so
>there might be some headroom in the PS.

Ah, I guess they always have the NBH (not bought here) argument then.:-)

>The castrated "Lite" version of the Nforce 430/6150 chipset is a perfect
>illustration of why to avoid this garbage.
>
>I think most EM manufacturers equip their systems out like this. There
>is not a lot of physical room for upgrades on their systems, unlike
>systems we'd build ourselves -- so things can be castrated and still be
>quite usable.

sure - but isn't it annoying: the chipset has 2xPATA channels but they
had the mbrd shop make a special version with the PATA connectors and maybe
some traces removed. Spending time/money to defeature something so you can
down-market segment it is nuts. I guess when you boil it down, it's
another reason we DIYers got started in the first place.

>I just hope Dell is not going to use AMD as a foil to show off Intel's
>"strengths". I've said several times that AMD would be better off without
>Dell - they only devalue the product. To the casual buyer this is bottom
>of the barrel - people often figure a few extra $$ spent is "worth it".
>
>Weren't most of Dell's Intel systems exactly like this too? Low
>expansion capacity, built right to the minimal requirements systems?

Yeah, that's true but people are funny - they want to be able to say to
their friends: "oh we didn't get the cheapest model you know".:-) I'm half
tempted to call up Dell sales to get "advice" on "whether I should go for
the AMD or Intel system" just to see how they play it.

17 Sep 2006 07:12:39 -0700, "bbbl67" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>>The castrated "Lite" version of the Nforce 430/6150 chipset is a perfect
>>illustration of why to avoid this garbage.
>>
>>I think most EM manufacturers equip their systems out like this. There
>>is not a lot of physical room for upgrades on their systems, unlike
>>systems we'd build ourselves -- so things can be castrated and still be
>>quite usable.
>>
>sure - but isn't it annoying: the chipset has 2xPATA channels but they
>had the mbrd shop make a special version with the PATA connectors and maybe
>some traces removed. Spending time/money to defeature something so you can
>down-market segment it is nuts. I guess when you boil it down, it's
>another reason we DIYers got started in the first place.
>
>I'm sure in this case they simply never connected traces to the parts
>of the chipset dealing with the PATA connectors. Thus saving some money
>in the motherboard design, and also some board real-estate.

Not sure how the de-featured market works - obviously nVidia did a
reference design; mbrds are designed for the retail market which are not
emasculated. It'd be additional fixed cost expense to make a separate
design and production line for the defeatured board, for a minimal savings
in marginal production cost.

We see this in the retail baords, where there is often only one or two
basic board designs and the only differences between the various "Plus",
"Super", "Ultra" and "DeLuxe" versions is components - you see the solder
pads where the chips/connectors are missing.

The SATA
>connectors are extremely easy to accomodate on even the smallest
>form-factors. PATA aren't. And Dell is one of the driving members of
>the SATA committee. They have likely got big deal set up with one of
>the HD makers for SATA drives and therefore they would never be buying
>PATA hard drives anyways, so PATA connectors on the mobo would be just
>sitting uselessly for them.

Again, there are u-ATX boards out there with 2xPATA connectors; I have my
doubts that the designers would redo the place and route and do a
reschedule of stuffing for a cheap version more likely just miss a
couple of stuff-stations and test-rigs but I'm no authority on this.
Maybe someone else can comment on how the junk market is umm, provided?
You're probably right about Dell's motives though the Plextor is the
only current seller of SATA DVD-R/RWs that I see.

Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:37:53 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@yahoo.comwrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>Not sure how the de-featured market works - obviously nVidia did a
>reference design; mbrds are designed for the retail market which are not
>emasculated. It'd be additional fixed cost expense to make a separate
>design and production line for the defeatured board, for a minimal savings
>in marginal production cost.
>>
>We see this in the retail baords, where there is often only one or two
>basic board designs and the only differences between the various "Plus",
>"Super", "Ultra" and "DeLuxe" versions is components - you see the solder
>pads where the chips/connectors are missing.
>
>I'm sure the big tier-1's are enough volume by themselves to justify a
>special design for just them. At one time Dell even had a special ATX
>power supply connector, not sure if that's still true right now. Dell
>just rearranged the pins on the ATX PS plug to make sure that nobody
>tries to replace their motherboards with non-Dell supplied ones. That
>little feature alone must've cost a few thousand dollars in R&D, but
>Dell may have generated enough volumes for that mobo maker to recoup that.

It'd be interesting to know for sure - I guess it's even possible that
nVidia did a special ref design for them. Someone with a Dell system might
be able to take a peek at their mbrd for signs of solder pads instead of
PATA connectors - there are pics of all the major mbrds at NewEgg for
comparison.

It was mentioned a while back that Dell had given up the special ATX
connector on *some* systems but it's never been clear if that was a policy
change or just a one-off or maybe even a case of Dell using an off the
shelf board occasionally.

Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:27:19 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fnsfmf@jps.netwrote:

>"YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.comwrote in message
>news:1158440171.292675.62150@
>>
>As for disabling PATA, Dell is the one who supplies all of the hard
>drives and optical drives anyways for these systems, so likely they
>don't even bother to carry PATA stuff anymore, it's all SATA for them
>now.
>
>Dell carries/uses SATA optical drives? Newegg is selling PATA DVD-R drives
>for $30 and free shipping. What's the cheapest SATA equivalent you know of,
>and where can you buy it?

They don't have a DVD-RM drive - only the burner. Note that DVD-RM
drives are fading away - the best one (the Asus and only one worth buying
?) has been out of stock in black at NewEgg and anyplace else for a month
now. At the office, I've had three L DVD-RMs fail after 2 years of
very light use pure junk!

For burners, the only retail DVD+-/R-RW in SATA is the Plextor but ISTR
that I read that it was produced by Sanyo. I guess Dell could also have
the mfr build in a SATA/PATA converter to the drive's connector.

Wed, 20 Sep 2006 04:11:05 GMT, max <maxicon13@yahoo.comwrote:

Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:42:52 -0400, George Macdonald
><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.comwrote:
>
>>It'd be interesting to know for sure - I guess it's even possible that
>>nVidia did a special ref design for them. Someone with a Dell system might
>>be able to take a peek at their mbrd for signs of solder pads instead of
>>PATA connectors - there are pics of all the major mbrds at NewEgg for
>>comparison.
>
>I've upgraded a number of Dells for friends over the years, and in
>every case I can recall, missing features were as you described - same
>MB as higher-end models, but with connectors missing from the MB.
>Presumably the BIS is modded to take that into account, but I
>couldn't vouch for that.

Thanks max. Any word on what the deal is with Dell PSUs now? Are they all
standard now or is there no consistenct answer?