Paul Novitski wrote:
I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.
http://php.net/setlocale
Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.
1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/
I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be provided.
In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.
I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.
I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?
Wyss

Fri, 2007-01-26 at 21:25 +0100, Wyss wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:

I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.

http://php.net/setlocale

Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.

1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/

I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be provided.

In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.

I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.

Sure it does, but you can accumulate all the retrieved texts for a page
and cache them so subsequent hits only require a query for the cached
entries. If the page has some translations that may or may not show up
depending on certain values, then you can retrieve the cache, update the
cache with each translation not previously cached and then re-store the
cache. After a while you'll only make 1 query (2 if you're sloppy and
don't check a dirty bit for if the cache actually changed :)

Cheers,
Rob.

At 1/26/2007 12:25 PM, Wyss wrote:
>Paul Novitski wrote:
>>In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
>>language field I can select on to match the user's request.
>
>I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
>performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data
>arrays an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.
>
>I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
>definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?

If you store your text in a data table and retrieve it with a query,
you're leaning your weight on SQL (or your database engine of choice).

If you store your text in individual text files, you're leaning on
the operating system's own database system to locate, open, and read the file.

If you store all your text in a single text file, you're leaning on
server memory to store everything when you may only want a few chunks.

Unless your site is insanely popular or huge, does the method really
matter so much? The idea of storing all the text for an entire
website in a single text file sounds scary but feasible if the site
size is modest. Servers and database engines are built to perform
file I/ quickly & efficiently, and I find it unlikely that you'll
strain the system unless your traffic is enormous, your content huge,
and your queries inefficient.

Is your "static text" really static? How often is it modified? If
you're really concerned about streamlining, consider building your
pages dynamically from a database but then caching them on the server
as plain html, refreshing individual files in the cache when your
SQL-based content changes.

Regards,

Paul

Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com

Wyss wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:

I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.

>
>>
>
>>
>http://php.net/setlocale
>>
Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.
>>
>1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
>generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
>http://partcon.ca/
>>
I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be provided.

>In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
>language field I can select on to match the user's request.
>>
I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.

I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?

don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route - defines
are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of loading in text
from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the storage mechanism:

$Lang = array(
'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
// etc
);

assoc array are much less heavy to create.

also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific data:

1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are specified during site/application
design.

2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these are specified by the owner/user during
the lifetime of the site/application

for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list members replied :-)

Wyss

Hello.

I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices regarding
how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to say when it
comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an example.

IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I am
about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.

I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.

Am I making sense? I might also add that I read some articles from W3
org about localization / internationalization, but I couldn't find
anything useful so far.

What is your opinion?

regards,

//frank

27 jan 2007 kl. 01.12 skrev Jochem Maas:

Wyss wrote:
>Paul Novitski wrote:
>>
>I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
>message here about supporting multiple languages.
>>

http://php.net/setlocale

>Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.

1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/

>I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be
>provided.
>>
In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.

>I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
>performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data
>arrays
>an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.
>>
>I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
>definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?
>
don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route -
defines
are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of
loading in text
from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the storage
mechanism:

$Lang = array(
'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
// etc
);

assoc array are much less heavy to create.

also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific data:

1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are
specified during site/application
design.

2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these are
specified by the owner/user during
the lifetime of the site/application

for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list
members replied :-)
>
>>
>Wyss
>>
>

Anyone?

//frank
8 feb 2007 kl. 11.24 skrev Frank Arensmeier:

Hello.

I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices
regarding how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to
say when it comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an example.

IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I
am about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.

I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.

Am I making sense? I might also add that I read some articles from
W3 org about localization / internationalization, but I couldn't
find anything useful so far.

What is your opinion?

regards,

//frank
--
27 jan 2007 kl. 01.12 skrev Jochem Maas:
>
>Wyss wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:

I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.

http://php.net/setlocale

Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.

1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/

I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be
provided.

In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.

I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data
arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.

I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?
>>
>don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route -
>defines
>are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of
>loading in text
>from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the
>storage mechanism:
>>
>$Lang = array(
>'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
>// etc
>);
>>
>assoc array are much less heavy to create.
>>
>also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific
>data:
>>
>1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are
>specified during site/application
>design.
>>
>2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these
>are specified by the owner/user during
>the lifetime of the site/application
>>
>for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list
>members replied :-)
>>

Wyss

>>
>--
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

>8 feb 2007 kl. 11.24 skrev Frank Arensmeier:
>
>>I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
>>wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices
>>regarding how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to
>>say when it comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an example.
>>
>>IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
>>on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
>>www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I
>>am about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
>>example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
>>corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
>>content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
>>content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.
>>
>>I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
>>have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
>>either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.

My initial thought is that it will be confusing if you use national
TLDs instead of IS language codes. I see national TLDs as national
indicators, not linguistic ones. I think it's appropriate to use a
series of national TLDs for the branches of an international
organization in various countries, but I don't see the one-to-one
correlation between nations and languages that you're reaching
for. Although using country codes or flags to represent languages
might appear to work well with a very small and select sampling, it
breaks down quickly when you include more groups.

Maybe what would serve you better would be language-specific sub-domains, e.g.:

sv.example.com (website in Swedish)

contrasted with:

example.se (website in Sweden)

See:

IS0 639-2
Alpha-3 codes arranged alphabetically by the English name of language

By the way, because your question is not how to implement such a
system in PHP, perhaps this topic isn't really appropriate for this
list. I'd suggest taking it to one of these:

multiweb.googlegroups.com
Webdesign-L
WSG (Web Standards Group)

Regards,

Paul

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com

Thank you Paul for your comments - very valuable!

//frank
9 feb 2007 kl. 10.08 skrev Paul Novitski:

>
>8 feb 2007 kl. 11.24 skrev Frank Arensmeier:
>>
I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices
regarding how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to
say when it comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an
example.

IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I
am about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.

I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.
--
My initial thought is that it will be confusing if you use national
TLDs instead of IS language codes. I see national TLDs as
national indicators, not linguistic ones. I think it's appropriate
to use a series of national TLDs for the branches of an
international organization in various countries, but I don't see
the one-to-one correlation between nations and languages that
you're reaching for. Although using country codes or flags to
represent languages might appear to work well with a very small and
select sampling, it breaks down quickly when you include more groups.

Maybe what would serve you better would be language-specific sub-
domains, e.g.:

sv.example.com (website in Swedish)

contrasted with:

example.se (website in Sweden)

See:

IS0 639-2
Alpha-3 codes arranged alphabetically by the English name of language

By the way, because your question is not how to implement such a
system in PHP, perhaps this topic isn't really appropriate for this
list. I'd suggest taking it to one of these:

multiweb.googlegroups.com
Webdesign-L
WSG (Web Standards Group)

Regards,

Paul

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com

Fri, 2007-02-09 at 09:03 +0100, Frank Arensmeier wrote:
Anyone?

If you use top level domains like that then if someone wants to swith
between languages you won't be able to share session information without
employing session propogation tricks.

Cheers,
Rob.

//frank
8 feb 2007 kl. 11.24 skrev Frank Arensmeier:

Hello.

I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices
regarding how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to
say when it comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an example.

IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I
am about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.

I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.

Am I making sense? I might also add that I read some articles from
W3 org about localization / internationalization, but I couldn't
find anything useful so far.

What is your opinion?

regards,

//frank
--
27 jan 2007 kl. 01.12 skrev Jochem Maas:
>
>Wyss wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:

I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.

http://php.net/setlocale

Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.

1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/

I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be
provided.

In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.

I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data
arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.

I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a different
definition file when the user switches language. Is this practical?
>>
>don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route -
>defines
>are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of
>loading in text
>from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the
>storage mechanism:
>>
>$Lang = array(
>'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
>// etc
>);
>>
>assoc array are much less heavy to create.
>>
>also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific
>data:
>>
>1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are
>specified during site/application
>design.
>>
>2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these
>are specified by the owner/user during
>the lifetime of the site/application
>>
>for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list
>members replied :-)
>>

Wyss

>>
>--
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

Fri, 2007-02-09 at 07:23 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:
Fri, 2007-02-09 at 09:03 +0100, Frank Arensmeier wrote:
Anyone?
If you use top level domains like that then if someone wants to swith
no, I've developed a lithp :)
Cheers,
Rob.

Thank you Robert.

Actually, I am not so sure anymore if my idea of "binding" localized
content to domains is the right path to go. After a litte research, I
saw that many of the major sites out there are redirecting the user
to subfolders. Maybe this is the right thing to do. What would happen
if a page is available in English and e.g. american English or when a
certain domain is not available?

Right now I am playing with mod_rewrite. Looks promising.
//frank

9 feb 2007 kl. 13.23 skrev Robert Cummings:

Fri, 2007-02-09 at 09:03 +0100, Frank Arensmeier wrote:
>Anyone?
>
If you use top level domains like that then if someone wants to swith
between languages you won't be able to share session information
without
employing session propogation tricks.

Cheers,
Rob.
>
>>
>//frank
>8 feb 2007 kl. 11.24 skrev Frank Arensmeier:
>>
Hello.

I would like to hook up on this issue a little bit more. I am
wondering if anybody is willing to share some good advices
regarding how to implement a good (normative) url structure so to
say when it comes to multi lingual sites. Let me give you an
example.

IBM has many different domains including .se, .de, .com, .es and so
on. But, all local domains are redirected to e.g. www.ibm.com/de or
www.ibm.com/se and so on. Is this "common practise"? Right now, I
am about to restructure my employers site. But, in contrast to for
example the IBM site, I would like to bind the content to the
corresponding domain - without redirecting the visitor. All english
content for example will be under the .com domain, all swedish
content will be under .se domain. Hope you see what I mean.

I am not seeking advices about how to implement such a structure (I
have done this already). I am more interested in pros and cons with
either way. My hope is that the site will be more Google friendly.

Am I making sense? I might also add that I read some articles from
W3 org about localization / internationalization, but I couldn't
find anything useful so far.

What is your opinion?

regards,

//frank

27 jan 2007 kl. 01.12 skrev Jochem Maas:

Wyss wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:

I formulated my question in general since I couldn't find an other
message here about supporting multiple languages.

http://php.net/setlocale

Thanks a lot, these are good points for reading.

1) Switching language downloads a new version of the current
page,
generally with the same markup but new text. Example:
http://partcon.ca/

I'll favor this way especially if several languages have to be
provided.

In both cases I store the text in database tables that contain a
language field I can select on to match the user's request.

I wonder if retrieving static texts from the database draws too
much
performance. I know from somebody who stores texts in large data
arrays
an uses shared memory, yet I haven't figured it out how.

I consider storing static texts as defines and just load a
different
definition file when the user switches language. Is this
practical?

don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route -
defines
are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of
loading in text
from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the
storage mechanism:

$Lang = array(
'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
// etc
);

assoc array are much less heavy to create.

also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific
data:

1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are
specified during site/application
design.

2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these
are specified by the owner/user during
the lifetime of the site/application

for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list
members replied :-)

Wyss

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

>>

Paul Novitski wrote:
Unless your site is insanely popular or huge, does the method really
Sure I hope to once have an insanely popular or huge site, albeit that
probably won't happen.
Wyss

Jochem Maas wrote:

don't go down the define('LANG_KEY', 'lang string value'); route - defines
are comparatively SLW to create. IF you go down the road of loading in text
from 'per lang' files I would suggest using an array as the storage mechanism:

$Lang = array(
'LANG_KEY' ='lang string value',
// etc
);

assoc array are much less heavy to create.

Thanks, I'll try the assoc array.

also consider that there are, imho, 2 kinds of language specific data:

1. 'static' values - button texts, [error] messages - these are specified during site/application
design.

Yes these are the static texts I'm talking about. They don't depend on
data, only on layout and design.

2. 'dynamic' values - document titles, headers, content - these are specified by the owner/user during
the lifetime of the site/application

Sure, I've these values too and store them in the database.

for the rest I'll just say 'ditto' to most of what the other list members replied :-)

Thanks a lot.

Wyss